Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

[LazyEagle]

cool, because they certainly don't register for me and make that incredibly satisfying sound when I chase after the dead ringer spies and burn them in the back!

Also, they seem to live a lot longer than they should!

[Loud&Clear]

I see many of you share the same opinion as me (that the dead ringer should be banned in some situations) but you all have the wrong reasons for it.

So what if it's annoying? If a good scout is good at harassing the team you won't go to the steam forums crying that the scout's speed and dbl-jump is overpowered. The dead ringer gives the spy a bit more versatility in the harassing department.

The problem here is in the number of people playing. It's a 6v6 match, played in maps that were certainly made for a larger number of players. Maps like well, badlands and granary will end up having unused space that can be used by dead ringer spies to get ammo, health and go back into the fray (sort of). Things get even worse when my entire team feels they have to gang up on the spy instead of letting the "pro spychecker" do his job. There were some situations where I, the medic, were left alone defending the point while the team raged on the teamchat about the spy. The dead ringer spy was vital to his team's success for all the wrong reasons.

The sound is there for us to know the spy's around. Thing is, the sound covers a wide area, and in maps like the ones i mentioned (badlands etc), where there's lots of unused space and "secret" areas, the sound is as good as nothing. Just a confirmation of what we already know: the spy escaped, and is around.

Though, saying the other team should get a deadringer spy is the wrong way to counter the argument that the dead ringer spy is overpowered. In the good ol' ultima online days, i played in a server with a skill that was overpowered but few bothered to raise it. Their counter-argument was the same: get the skill yourself. In the end, when everyone had the skill raised, those with the "get it yourself" mentality became the ones crying foul.

The deadringer shouldn't be completely banned. There are maps where it should be allowed (goldrush stage 1 for example): maps where 12 players make the map crowded. (Well... i felt the stage was crowded =X)

A thing i noticed this last time was that we didnt play any custom maps (at least while i was there). I think the next game should focus a bit more on custom maps, made for 6v6 games. I'd like to see just how threatning a dead ringer spy can be on maps made for 6v6. Notice i said "threatning", not "annoying". We all know it is

[Doomzor]

Well I didn't exactly meant that the other team should have a dead ringer spy to make things balanced, just referred that they also had a spy which for a short period also tried the dead ringer and then switched back, that same spy could be using that nightmare watch that is so unbalanced and yet he didn't.

Well it is true that wider spaces improve the survivability of the dead ringer spy since it is easier to run somewhere and go away unnoticed, but that doesn't seem to be the argument for the ban. Spy going unnoticed is something everyone is used to, the spy being able to sneak away over and over again luring half a team is what is getting people on their nerves. I keep my position that if you shouldn't bother that much on getting the spy killed but rather keep an eye on your back to be able to shoot him next time he shows up (since he hasn't invisibility the spy will have to show up disguised sooner or later).

Finally, if the spy is making such a mess, get yourself a pyro. But dont get the pyro to play hide and seek with the spy, that's the spy's objective. Get the pyro to constantly spycheck your team and the space around since that's how the spy is going to backstab people, if you eventually got the spy on fire you can keep chasing him but always remember where the next ammo pack is. No ammo pack = no dead ringer abuse.

[Exterminatus]

The DR is just an escape tool. It depends on how the spies use it, but it's not much good at infiltration - this is where the open spaces really come into play since a DR spy can get behind enemy lines very easily, so I'm going to have to agree with Loud&Clear that it is indeed overpowered when used in bigger maps.
Good point on the pyro thing, Doomzor. It's one of the reasons I tried playing pyro for my team in the first place - Crimson Edge was being a big problem with his Cloak & Dagger camping. Yes, he tried the Dead Ringer, but I was still pyro then and he quickly realised it wouldn't be much good. Not to mention if you act as a "shield" pyro it can be extremely beneficial to your team since you can burn/juggle scouts and bounce rockets/stickies away, negating most of the enemy's attack. The inherit spycheck is more of a bonus.
Hell, I got to kill someone with a reflected Kritzkrieg rocket!

[Loud&Clear]

Hell, I got to kill someone with a reflected Kritzkrieg rocket!

no need to thank me

[Doomzor]

Now wait wait wait. I can't use the dead ringer in the highlander games? What's the reasoning for that? There's more people, map is more crowded, it's a less competitive environment than a 6v6. If banning it from 6v6 is already polemic, banning it from highlander is even worse.

Well, since we're at it...

Ban the blutsauger. It's just plain too strong and it's a no-crit server, so it has no downgrade. The medic shouldn't be able to defend himself from a scout or a pyro so easily in a 6v6.

Ban the ubersaw. Übers are way too important to be awarded to a medic by getting some cheap hits on a spy. Well, getting übers by using the melee weapon is just plain wrong and out of concept for a 6v6.

Ban the force a nature. Most people find it annoying and its damage per second ability is absolutely crazy, basic hit n run by hiding behind a wall or a rock makes the weapon broken. Pushing back people is also broken and too strong in control point maps, i.e. badlands (2 hits, 2 players flying away from the middle point).

Ban the axtinguisher. If no one else has crits on the melee weapon why should the pyro be an exception? It's not like it's his main objective, unlike the spy or the sniper.

Ban the flaregun. On maps with no water is just too strong, it deals way too much damage than it is supposed to and now it also has minicrits on burning targets.

Ban the huntsman. Its hitboxes are totally retarded and even if the arrow misses the target it still counts, I think everyone has noticed it already.

Ban the jarate. Area of effect minicrits is way too unbalanced.

Ban the cloak and dagger. Infinite cloak is unbalanced, it takes a pyro to uncover a cnd spy and that should not be necessary.



If you think all these bannings are dumb, then think twice before banning the dead ringer. There's no prize on the table, this is not supposed to have a super competitive atmosphere. The dead ringer is super loud, has a very short cloak duration (7 seconds), makes your escape predictable since you're forced to go to the next ammo pack due to its loudness and you can't control when you cloak. That should make up for the fake death and 7 second period of 10% damage taken.

And remember I'm actually the only one using it, it's kinda hard to defend the dead ringer when I lack backup

[BBloke]

I voted for the dead ringer to be banned. Best to do both 9 v 9 and 6 v 6. It has it's uses and it when used correctly is more annoying than any sandman.

[Doomzor]

The sandman was banned because it was overpowered since it could stop übers and break the 6v6 gameplay, not because it was annoying.

[Exterminatus]

But with the Dead Ringer you force one of the other team to go pyro and constantly spycheck around or they'll suffer harassment throughout the game, and even when they do get a pyro you're more than likely to escape alive and be back on the job right away. I already said being a pyro has its definite bonuses in 6v6, but the class is hard if you don't have experienced pyros.
My opinion on the matter is simple - if the good folks at the EU TF2 league banned it in 6v6, so should we.

[Doomzor]

Ok, sure. But don't ban it from 9v9 highlander please.