Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Oldmeme & Chairman's Saturday night fun and games

Should the Dead Ringer be banned?

Yes, ban it! It's far too annoying/overpowered to be played in this 6v6 environment.
13
59%
No, don't ban it! Without it, we may not see any more spies in these games, and I don't want that.
4
18%
Possibly, I'm indifferent on the subject.
5
23%
 
Total votes: 22

Loud&Clear
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Loud&Clear » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:07 pm

Exterminatus wrote: My opinion on the matter is simple - if the good folks at the EU TF2 league banned it in 6v6, so should we.
This is one of the laziest, most dumbfounded reasons i've read today*.

Most leagues are full of idiots who don't like change and regard everything from outside the box as illegal, unbalanced or not meant to be ingame, yet allow other stupid stuff to be used. Why? Because it's in the game. Anyone else finding problems with this logic? Now, i don't know much about this EU TF2 guys, but i'm figuring they might be using some anti-logic armor in some issues.

We shouldn't be looking at other leagues for references. There's no real authority when it comes to stuff like this. We must reach our own conclusions and, in the end, become the unique breath of fresh air in the "league" scene.

*It's nothing against you, exterminatus. I still love you. You're one of the most handsome men i have seen in this world, with a wit as sharp as the tip of a sword that just came out of a forge

When it comes to 6v6, my opinion stands: DR should be banned in maps that are too big for 6v6 and allowed in maps made for 6v6. So far, i haven't played a single custom map in the pugs, granted i've only been there twice but i'm figuring it's the norm. We should be looking for custom, 6v6-only maps to be playing, and then decide if the DR should be banned from those as well.

As for highlander matches, that's a completely different story. Each team will need to have a pyro, so there'll always be spychecking. There are 6 more players than in the pug matches. In most cases, 18 people are enough to fill some maps. Having in consideration all these variables, the chances of a dead ringer spy surviving are a lot less, compared to a 6v6. It should've at least been tested before being banned right away, though I think it was more of a preventive thing than a permanent ban, since the legality of the dead ringer was being discussed at the time of the highlander match.
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Doomzor
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Doomzor » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:16 pm

When it comes to 6v6, my opinion stands: DR should be banned in maps that are too big for 6v6 and allowed in maps made for 6v6. So far, i haven't played a single custom map in the pugs, granted i've only been there twice but i'm figuring it's the norm. We should be looking for custom, 6v6-only maps to be playing, and then decide if the DR should be banned from those as well.
This is a great truth. Last sunday wasn't the first time I was using the DR, I had used the other weeks before and when I used in 6v6 maps NO ONE WHINED OR EVEN MENTIONED THE DEAD RINGER BEING UNBALANCED.

And I also think that this should be a competition to try new stuff and think outside of the box. Jeffer was annoying me like hell through the whole Granary game because he thought going Spy was bad for the team, and in the end he said "wow, that's the first time I see a spy being well used in a 6v6" after I backstabbed the last heavy and helped cap the final point.


Because we all know 2 scouts 2 soldiers 1 demo 1 medic is a lot of fun.
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Made a second video from one of our 6v6 pugs, check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T333Fs1Z9Ec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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oldmeme
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by oldmeme » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:42 pm

Doomzor wrote: Because we all know 2 scouts 2 soldiers 1 demo 1 medic is a lot of fun.
Protip: Sarcasm rarely works on the internet.

I can see where you are coming from though and the leagues tend to stick to that structure because it's the fastest, most effectively punching team when it's properly managed and after testing/practicing to work as a team with it. Our games are Pug matches however so it's really more of a raggedy bunch of players looking for a taste of the league experience, without getting too involved.
Doomzor wrote:This is a great truth. Last sunday wasn't the first time I was using the DR, I had used the other weeks before and when I used in 6v6 maps NO ONE WHINED OR EVEN MENTIONED THE DEAD RINGER BEING UNBALANCED.
Just because no one complained on the night, does not mean people did not have the same or similar thoughts on it as to the one that brought up this argument in the first place. Had you or anybody else not played with the DR last week, it would only have been a matter of time anyway before people could take no more of it.

My stance on the Dead Ringer is as follows:

In standard ME-ME-OW play in 6v6 games, the best possible way to counteract a DR Spy is with a Pyro, if not the only real way to counter one. The Team cannot simply be "more vigilant" or "slightly more careful" as the DR has the potential to save the Spy nearly every time, provided he knows where ammo packs are. Forcing the other team to have a Pyro means he will likely need to play defensively, which I think detracts from the overall mood of the game. In my eyes, it turns it into a 5v5 with a Spy and Pyro playing cat and mouse on the side then one of them briefly helping out when the other dies momentarily. It creates unnecessary paranoia and ends up tightening play which like I said, our bunch of players are not used to. What attracts people to the ME-ME-OW games is that they're 6v6 or 9v9s without the league heavy hassles of constantly shouting at one another for not being able to deal with a simple task.
Things are more fun when players are given a bit of leg room to go all out, but a well played DR Spy has his knife at those legs constantly poking away at them, forcing players to play, well... more like a proper team, which most of our target croud (That'd be you, Fester's Place players :P) would likely turn away from.
That's why I chose to have the Dead Ringer banned from 6v6 games.

In Highlander, we might be willing to let it slide as there is to be one Spy and one Pyro on each team anyway. Thursday's ban was more of a knee-jerk reaction because the argument was currently ongoing.

As a final note, the Sandman will remain banned from all these matches as more often than not an Uber is what drives a group into the final capture point or the like, and the potential to stop these is a real hamper on the team using it.*

*Pyros with airblast and Demos with stickies can be taken care of, a frozen Uber or Uber-ing Medic, cannot.
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Doomzor
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Doomzor » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:56 pm

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Time to practice the cloak and dagger! Nice to see DR didn't get banned from highlander, tho.

( Sarcasm is one of the great wonders of the internetz, problem is that some people can't detect sarcasm and others suck at using sarcasm :-D )
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Made a second video from one of our 6v6 pugs, check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T333Fs1Z9Ec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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MuG
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by MuG » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:44 pm

The bottom line on this is that the damage reduction(10% really??, good topic) after he has feigned death is ridiculous.
If there was a fix/some way to mod the weapon to removed the damage reduction while cloaked I would have no problem with it being used at all.
It's a great weapon created nicely by valve, But the damage reduction is absolute bullshit! You shopuld be able to die like any other spy who is cloaked
Normal damage dead ringer FTW. Stupid valve what were they thinking
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Doomzor
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Doomzor » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:29 pm

Valve's idea is that you get a deal with the devil: invincibility for 7 secs, but after that, that huge noise will make you get killed unless you used the cloak to run away of people (and when that is the case, the spy doesn't make a big use from the damage reduction).


edit: but those 10% work weird. I.e. a backstab makes a DR spy take 75 dmg, same applies to a full charged head shot. And pyros can kill the spy if they chase him more or less non stop (backburners kill faster because of crits).
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Made a second video from one of our 6v6 pugs, check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T333Fs1Z9Ec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Loud&Clear
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Loud&Clear » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:36 pm

I think those guys at that forum are going a LITTLE bit too dramatic about the dead ringer's superpowers =x
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MuG
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by MuG » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:44 am

Doomzor wrote:Valve's idea is that you get a deal with the devil: invincibility for 7 secs, but after that, that huge noise will make you get killed unless you used the cloak to run away of people (and when that is the case, the spy doesn't make a big use from the damage reduction).
Unless he goes to the nearest ammo pack, dies again, practicaly invincible for another 7 seconds. over and over and over. Sound familiar?
Doomzor wrote:edit: but those 10% work weird. I.e. a backstab makes a DR spy take 75 dmg, same applies to a full charged head shot. And pyros can kill the spy if they chase him more or less non stop (backburners kill faster because of crits).
Incorrect. a backstab takes half each time. eg. 75->37->18->9->4->2-> then after the 7th backstab he finally fucking dies! Me & smokedef tested this on each other, It was reliable on both of us, same numbers each stab.
Why should a pyro have a to have a backburner to kill u(pyros in 6 vs 6 with backburner). Even with crits takes way too long to take down 1200 or so health.
Loud&Clear wrote:I think those guys at that forum are going a LITTLE bit too dramatic about the dead ringer's superpowers =x
How's this then? Good enough test??
Ridiculous weapon/tool. Banned for good reason :mrgreen:
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Chairman_Meow
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Chairman_Meow » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:49 pm

I personally think that they should give the Dead Ringer around about a 10% damage reduction, not reduce it to 10% of the original damage (like it does now), giving the spy at least a bit of health to get away with and then on top of that make it a little quieter so he's not as noticeable.

I honestly don't know why the Dead Ringer's been banned on those official games, it's not as if the spy's a competitive class or that any proper team actually has a spy.
And christ almighty, just because they do it doesn't mean we have to you bloody sheep.

If we're gonna start banning annoying weapons, I vote to ban the fuck out of the Force a Nature. I swear to god if there's one weapon I truly hate it's that.
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Crimson Edge
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Re: Should The Dead Ringer be banned within the Pugs?

Post by Crimson Edge » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:07 pm

Chairman_Meow wrote:I personally think that they should give the Dead Ringer around about a 10% damage reduction, not reduce it to 10% of the original damage (like it does now), giving the spy at least a bit of health to get away with and then on top of that make it a little quieter so he's not as noticeable.

I honestly don't know why the Dead Ringer's been banned on those official games, it's not as if the spy's a competitive class or that any proper team actually has a spy.
And christ almighty, just because they do it doesn't mean we have to you bloody sheep.

If we're gonna start banning annoying weapons, I vote to ban the fuck out of the Force a Nature. I swear to god if there's one weapon I truly hate it's that.
You would be suprised about the amount of spies that are in official games as it can normally stop a medic and contain him around the spawn.
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